Pipers, For once I went off-line for the week-end and when I came back my inbox was full of nice ideas about Piper layers and uses, and why Narval (or parts of it maybe) should be integrated to it as an Artificial Intelligence Layer. Short answer is: hold on. Long answer is: sure, why not! But I'd like all of us to be clear about what we're doing. As the history of the Piper project shows, you all seem to be pretty good at abstracting things out. So let's sit down a bit, forget about what we have today and what projects the current code base inherits from. Two years ago when I started Narval (before I could get the others to hop in so that we get it to work in less than 5 years), I was also thinking about a visual shell and discussing it with collegues. Visual-shellish ideas indeed sliped into Narval's design, but it's *not* a visual shell in the sense Piper appears to define it and doesn't intend to become one. On the other hand, it could very well be made to interact very nicely with a visual shell like Piper and share code and other things. To get back to my previous point, I'd suggest forgetting about the current code base and write down a rather precise description of what we want Piper to do (you know, requirements :-). The ideas of piper nodes that publish their capabilities, P2P capabilities for communication and resource discovery, extending the principle of pipes, visual programming, etc. are the real goal(s) of Piper. It could be that choices were made when first merging the intial projects because anything else would have been impracticle (I'm thinking about the mapping one person / one layer here) and that those choices are actually not so good when we look at what we want to get to. (Again, I can't say for sure, one way or the other, so if someone has a clear opinion on that, please speak up). I'm willing to help here, so I'll read anything about Piper you can point me too and I'll try to send to the list a write-up about Narval achievements, hopes and dreams (have quick look at http://www.logilab.com/press/linux-expo2001 as a starter). You'll have to wait before I can find time to try the code, and at this point, I'm not sure it's mandatory. Then I'd suggest we collaboratively write everything down and post it on the website so that any passer-by can comment. I'd say that's what we started doing this week-end on the mailing list and with the Wiki, but maybe staying too close to what exists and not what we're trying to get to. Once we get that document, I'm sure the questions about "Should Narval be Piper's AIL?", "I thought about adding a Genetic Programming module, where do you think it would best fit?" will get rather obvious answers as we'll figure the implications right away. If you guys agree with me on this need of discussing and writing down the goals of the Piper Project before continuing further with the design, please give me (or Logilab, so that Alexandre can use it too. Name it after Narval's mascot: ornicar :-) an access to the CVS and I'll check in the very first version of that document so that we can all start building on it. If we were to build a web browser or some common piece of software, the roadmap would be crystal clear. Here we're dealing with something that looks like research, or at least pretty innovative stuff. If we don't have a clear understanding of others' ideas and do not share the same vision, chances are the road will be winding. Free software or not :-) -- Nicolas Chauvat http://www.logilab.com - "Mais où est donc Ornicar ?" - LOGILAB, Paris (France)